Developers Start Receiving $500 Credits for Returning DTK Mac Minis

[jdb8167]

I have a dev account and thought it would be nice to try one out early, but got busy on other projects. And honestly, these systems seemed like something sort of thrown together.

Apparently they were based on what seems to be a very high hardware failure rate. And Apple didn’t replace a lot of them that failed early.

Except the contact was for a year, Apple changed it and ended it early to me if Apple is going to take something then it should give something. In the original case it was $200 which was a lowball offer considering these things, developers made it public and Apple reconsidered and everyone (almost) is happy. Some developers have reported issues with the DTK with little to no support from Apple (cannot confirm).

Ending the contract was also in the contract and it didn’t specify any compensation. There were major hardware issues that I think caused the early return request. Also, the hardware really wasn’t very useful once real M1 Macs became available. In my opinion, Apple should have made the $200 offer with priority shipping the week of the M1 release and very few would have complained.

 

[jdb8167]

Botched Big Sur beta update bricked a ton of machines after a couple of months and Apple went silent to developers that needed a replacement that weren't a Fortune 500 company.

Considering the program was for a year and many developers got 2 months use out of it, they needed to make it right.

I suspect the failure rate on the DTK was significantly higher than Apple expected. They clearly ran out of replacements early in the program. I think they may have ultimately done a second run of DTK hardware because I saw at least one developer saying that they received a replacement late in the program but at that point it was too late for most. I got lucky, no bricking and mine worked from day one to the end. I shipped it back to Apple on Monday.

 

[code-m]

They haven't



Like I already said, Apple didn't get to where they are today without being smart with their cash even on the minuscule stuff.




I've worked at Apple so yes I know what goes on in there. There was only 6 people on the team I worked with including me.

In the Xcode example, it's entirely possible Apple wanted XYZ feature that warranted new members to be added on the Xcode team. $300 x 10,000 DTK program members could mean $3million needs to be reallocated so perhaps Apple decided that XYZ wasn't important and ended up postponing it until next year's budget.

Fact is, we won't know what Apple did to make up the extra $3mil assuming there were 10k members or if they just ate the cost and also we don't know how this affects upcoming DTKs.



Sure, and that's why Apple invested in building DTKs and then destroying them later. Even before $500 credit, I don't think Apple was expecting to break even from that project. The low economics of scale for the production of hardware + software + delivery + recycling is a money losing project.

Extra $300 is unexpected added cost which could be in the millions.

In contractual negotiations there are usually multiple envelope offers, anyone thinking otherwise is unfamiliar with the process. I have worked with budgets and contractual negotiations this is very normal of the initial being a lowball offer. Did Apple need to offer anything, no. Would it have left a bad stingy message across the software development community, absolutely. Was the first offer a lowball, definitely. Did Apple plan on the reaction received, possibly and unable to say but I can assure you a contingency was in place and in this scenario it was adding another $300 to the initial offer. There is a ceiling for these negotiants but it’s impossible to know what it is.

As mentioned a company running a profitable company for many many years knows this and I doubt the contingency had any lasting impact. Is it possible it may have delayed some very short term development, possibly but then again the money is offset or reallocated from other projects such as people working from home, less people travelling to Asian factories, other operating cost and so on. If Apple is truly good at budgeting this was already accommodated for, don’t worry we are probably not missing out on anything or we won’t even notice this is speculations on both our parts and there is no risk of Apple claiming bankruptcy because of this move.

 

[dlopan]

I suspect the failure rate on the DTK was significantly higher than Apple expected. They clearly ran out of replacements early in the program. I think they may have ultimately done a second run of DTK hardware because I saw at least one developer saying that they received a replacement late in the program but at that point it was too late for most. I got lucky, no bricking and mine worked from day one to the end. I shipped it back to Apple on Monday.

But what are going to buy with your 500 credit? whole thing was stupid

 

[Maconplasma]

Apple will write-off the $500 USD credit anyhow, no biggy. I don’t understand the dislike and hate concerning this issue though I feel it’s drawn out.

Interesting you call my expressed opinion “Dislike & Hate”. There’s nothing for me to dislike or hate. IMO they don’t deserve any credit for leasing equipment. Plain and simple. Sounds more like you’re the one that is hating and disliking and hating anyone who is not supporting the developers about receiving a credit.

 

[code-m]

Ending the contract was also in the contract and it didn’t specify any compensation. There were major hardware issues that I think caused the early return request. Also, the hardware really wasn’t very useful once real M1 Macs became available. In my opinion, Apple should have made the $200 offer with priority shipping the week of the M1 release and very few would have complained.

I agree with you and the DTK has proven that macOS can be run an A12X/Z chip though unstable. Imagine porting macOS DTK and run it on an iPad Pro 2020. The answer is it maybe unstable for most cases. DTK may have been a flawed beta product and this is probably the reasons Apple wants it back.

 

[Manzanito]

Hopefully we won’t hear from this again until we get the inevitable “developers start spending their 500$ credit” and its sequel “m1 macs purchased with the dtk program credit start arriving to developers”. But we may also get a couple of updates before 😃

 

[alien3dx]

Hopefully we won’t hear from this again until we get the inevitable “developers start spending their 500$ credit” and its sequel “m1 macs purchased with the dtk program credit start arriving to developers”. But we may also get a couple of updates before 😃

500 dollar can't buy mac mini m1 but at least give the mac mini m1 everybody happy win2

 

[code-m]

Interesting you call my expressed opinion “Dislike & Hate”. There’s nothing for me to dislike or hate. IMO they don’t deserve any credit for leasing equipment. Plain and simple. Sounds more like you’re the one that is hating and disliking and hating anyone who is not supporting the developers about receiving a credit.

Except one signed up for a program that was supposed to be relatively stable for it to be shipped and provide support, when developers are reporting either or neither were being met then there is a problem. No dislike or hate here, I am neither for or against the developers or Apple, this is business for both parties. Having AppleSilicon apps run on Apples vision is a benefit for both parties, more so for Apple as it can distance itself from Intel and speed up development of other projects. Apple sees the forest from the trees, the developers are the trees without them you have no forest.

 

[code-m]

Hopefully we won’t hear from this again until we get the inevitable “developers start spending their 500$ credit” and its sequel “m1 macs purchased with the dtk program credit start arriving to developers”. But we may also get a couple of updates before 😃

I hope this is the last we hear about this issue, the other one is that Epic battle court case. Maybe MacRumors needs a litigation tab on the site for those interested to read, having it on the front page has nothing to do regular folks. We want hardware and software rumours.

 

[Manzanito]

I hope this is the last we hear about this issue, the other one is that Epic battle court case. Maybe MacRumors needs a litigation tab on the site for those interested to read, having it on the front page has nothing to do regular folks. We want hardware and software rumours.

Where will the apple apologists and apple haters go, should a day like that ever come 🤣🤣

 

[Maconplasma]

Sigh. Whining.....Considering Apple gave the developers a giant middle finger I'd say they have something to "whine" about

I just love how some here pretend that developers are doing Apple a favor by coding apps for iOS and MacOS. Nope. And some of y’all need to get off your high horse. Don’t like the terms then code for Android and Windows and move on.

 

[Maconplasma]

Apple sees the forest from the trees, the developers are the trees without them you have no forest.

LMAO the developers wouldn’t have an entrepreneurial business if it weren’t for companies like Apple. As I said earlier some of you here need to stop acting like the developers are doing Apple a favor by coding on their platform. iOS have a crap load of developers a financial life they never thought they would have in a lifetime.

 

[alien3dx]

LMAO the developers wouldn’t have an entrepreneurial business if it weren’t for companies like Apple. As I said earlier some of you here need to stop acting like the developers are doing Apple a favor by coding on their platform. iOS have a crap load of developers a financial life they never thought they would have in a lifetime.

what are saying is weird ? and confusing. Apple a favor ? Apple justs a tool no more then that.

For reality , developer do a favour for apple because most real development are in windows or linux ( x86_64).

 

[Acidsplat]

Naw, you still got hardware early.

They broke the contract

 

[farewelwilliams]

Yeah, except let's break it down. There's a difference between cost and profit, and that's what we're talking about here.

First off, Apple invested in DTKs because it benefited Apple.

That's why I said "Sure, and that's why Apple invested in building DTKs and then destroying them later." in response to the statement "Apple also benefits from the DTK as more software is available ".

You're stating what I already said.

Second, in terms of the credit. So you've said Apple is taking a $3m hit

$3m is assuming 10k units (conservative number) were produced. Fact is, it's possible the number could be much higher considering:
- Microsoft + Adobe + Amazon + Google + Autodesk + Intuit + VMware + Maxon likely needs more than a few hundred units each considering the size of their teams working on Mac software
- Program was available to 32 countries. 10k would equate to about 300 units per country (very low).
- Program was available in June and yet, people were still able to request one in November.

- let's break it down. Firstly here, devs paid $500 for the kit. They got a $500 credit. The only thing Apple is out here is the BOM for the DTK itself - which, as I explained above, is miniscule in their marketing budget (which is what it should really be considered).

Now, that $500 credit goes against a mac - the cheapest M1 mac is $699. So devs are still paying full price for a new Mac Mini, they just got to effectively borrow a glued together DTK for a few months for free. Let's look at that $699 mac mini. What's the realistic BOM on that device? Estimates have said that they're saving at least $120 just on the CPU alone. Beyond that, you've got a $30 hunk of aluminium, a $40 SSD (yep, it still ships with 256G), $30 of RAM, maybe a $40 PSU and not much else. The BOM pretty clearly is going to be less than half the retail cost, so in terms of profit, Apple makes no profit, but the developer has effectively covered the raw cost of those 2 systems. And that's before most developers splurge on premium upgrades (e.g. if a dev bumps the ram to 16G on their new one (+$200) - that alone would pretty much cover half the cost of the DTK unit.

You're missing:
- Packaging, shipping (international too!), and handling costs to and from the developer
- Program includes 3x code level support incidents by Apple's engineers. Assume one request equates to 1 hour of engineer time, at $65/hr, that's about $200 per unit shipped out Apple allocated for code level support. Sure it's not going to equate to a 100% take rate, but it sure isn't free to run this feature.
- Low economies of scale of the DTK == much more expensive to produce since tooling is setup to produce a low yield.
- Recycling costs.
- Inventory costs. Like I said, people were able to request one in November.
- Software engineering for DTK specific beta builds

BOM is hardly the total cost of the product. I think you didn't break it down properly.

 

[4jasontv]

They broke the contract

They had T&C that let them.

 

[farewelwilliams]

In contractual negotiations there are usually multiple envelope offers, anyone thinking otherwise is unfamiliar with the process. I have worked with budgets and contractual negotiations this is very normal of the initial being a lowball offer. Did Apple need to offer anything, no. Would it have left a bad stingy message across the software development community, absolutely. Was the first offer a lowball, definitely. Did Apple plan on the reaction received, possibly and unable to say but I can assure you a contingency was in place and in this scenario it was adding another $300 to the initial offer. There is a ceiling for these negotiants but it’s impossible to know what it is.

As mentioned a company running a profitable company for many many years knows this and I doubt the contingency had any lasting impact. Is it possible it may have delayed some very short term development, possibly but then again the money is offset or reallocated from other projects such as people working from home, less people travelling to Asian factories, other operating cost and so on. If Apple is truly good at budgeting this was already accommodated for, don’t worry we are probably not missing out on anything or we won’t even notice this is speculations on both our parts and there is no risk of Apple claiming bankruptcy because of this move.

I highly doubt they planned the $200 becoming the $500. Apple cares much more about their image than to try to see if they can save $300 for each unit.

 

[jerryk]

Except one signed up for a program that was supposed to be relatively stable for it to be shipped and provide support, when developers are reporting either or neither were being met then there is a problem. No dislike or hate here, I am neither for or against the developers or Apple, this is business for both parties. Having AppleSilicon apps run on Apples vision is a benefit for both parties, more so for Apple as it can distance itself from Intel and speed up development of other projects. Apple sees the forest from the trees, the developers are the trees without them you have no forest.

Hardware and software unstable, and lack of support describe every similar program I have participated in. Some of this is expected since the hardware and software are nowhere near final and change with every nightly build. And it sucks to see your application start failing and testers reporting bugs because of a vendor's hardware or software change. But, it is just one of the things you deal with to have your application on a platform on or near release day.

 

[code-m]

LMAO the developers wouldn’t have an entrepreneurial business if it weren’t for companies like Apple. As I said earlier some of you here need to stop acting like the developers are doing Apple a favor by coding on their platform. iOS have a crap load of developers a financial life they never thought they would have in a lifetime.

Technically it’s a mutual relationship. Developers can spread the risk between Windows, Linux and Android. Some developers only program for Apple and some don’t support. At the end of the day Apple is not an island and with web/cloud based apps where AWS is focused this will be getting complicated and competitive.

I guess Apple does not need developers hence it has an annual WWDC event.

 

[code-m]

I highly doubt they planned the $200 becoming the $500. Apple cares much more about their image than to try to see if they can save $300 for each unit.

Correct public opinion does matter for a large well known corporation reputation hence the lowball offer and increase when some developers became vocal regarding the initial offer.

This because a 1 for 1 offer and Apple benefitted more as it collected $500 USD cash and provided a credit for the same value that can only be spent on Apple gear which Apple makes a profit off. However somehow people here believe Apple is the looser. Now if Apple gave $500 USD cash then maybe there is some discussion in part for Apple’s favour but that is not the case.

 

[code-m]

Hardware and software unstable, and lack of support describe every similar program I have participated in. Some of this is expected since the hardware and software are nowhere near final and change with every nightly build. And it sucks to see your application start failing and testers reporting bugs because of a vendor's hardware or software change. But, it is just one of the things you deal with to have your application on a platform on or near release day.

Are you beta-testing the DTK or beta-testing your apps and getting it ready. Seems like Apple wanted developers to beta-test its hardware and macOS ARM while also testing their own software titles.

Think Apple was not near completion on the M1, think again as it had a DTK ready prior to announcement, macOS ARM ready and most likely already testing the M1 in-house getting it ready for release. Apple didn’t announce the DTK and only started work on the M1 six months prior, this was in the making for years similarly like the Intel transition.

Every transition comes at a financial cost, Apple decided the short term pain was worth the long term profit and goal. Think giving DTK developers an additional $300 is going to bankrupt Apple, think again that perceived “loss” is revenue will be spread over time and through multiple channels. Guaranteed Tim Cook and Co. lost no sleep in approving the increase and just laughing at those apologist. SMH

 

[farewelwilliams]

Correct public opinion does matter for a large well known corporation reputation hence the lowball offer and increase when some developers became vocal regarding the initial offer.

Disagreed here. I'm almost certain the PR department put a dollar amount on the damages due to this $200 issue and they likely found that offering extra $300 outweighs the damages it caused.

This is very similar to the issue where Apple offered a 3 month trial on Apple Music and did not pay royalties to music artists from the trial (which caused Taylor Swift to remove her catalog from Apple Music). PR department put a dollar amount on the public image damage and compared it to the cost of paying royalties for the 3 month trial. They found that reversing course was the most beneficial, financially, and so they did.

 

[jdb8167]

But what are going to buy with your 500 credit? whole thing was stupid

No idea. New hardware is coming though. Until then, my M1 MacBook Air has been outstanding.

 

[jdb8167]

They broke the contract

Nope. It was clearly stated in the contract that they could request a return on the DTK at any time and it had to be returned within 30 days.